2013 ROUND 13 Singapore GP Pre/Post Race

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Higpup
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2013 ROUND 13 Singapore GP Pre/Post Race

Post by Higpup » Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:51 pm

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Singapore Grand Prix

Qualifying Starts at 9pm ET (6pm PT)

Race Date: 20 Sep 2013
Circuit Name: Marina Bay Street Circuit
Number of Laps: 46
Circuit Length: 5.073 km
Race Distance: 233.358 km



Download Track-- Singapore---- Put in Gamedata/Locations


Round 13 Race Results

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Josf
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Re: 2013 ROUND 13 Singapore GP Pre/Post Race

Post by Josf » Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:06 pm

My concerns about having less luck in the second half of the season were realized in the last race where Captain Slow was not plagued with problems, rather, the plague moved in my direction. The result is a narrowing of a comfortable lead in the point gap for 4th place. 15 points now separate my formerly comfortable lead over 5th place.

Sean manages to cut Stuff's lead down to 20.

Sean winning, with no points for Stuff is a lead change.

Captain slow managing a 3rd place with me failing (again) to finish (for any reason) results in a tie for 4th.

Jeff is comfortably in 3rd, no threats from below, and not much in the way of points to challenge for 2nd, yet.

I have abandoned trying to communicate any learning I may be accomplishing on the Set-up abilities known by some, and a mystery to me. Nothing appears to make sense from track to track. Next season is probably going to be either not happening or not happening with any knowledge (or false belief in knowledge) earned with this MOD as it exists: possibly moving to rFactor 2.

Who knows?

Meanwhile there is the very complicated, long, and fun night race in Singapore. I really like this track. I found the new download to be problematic with frame rates, or whatever, causing pauses, and so I turned down track detail, and shadow graphics (if I remember right) to get a smoother rendering of the action.

I am going to work at making sure (as best I can) to keep 4th place. Captain Slow can easily pass me up, proven by last season, each race, and current adventures of lady luck.

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Re: 2013 ROUND 13 Singapore GP Pre/Post Race

Post by JohnW » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:04 pm

While I like parts of this track, there are just too many spots that I make mistakes here and often do. I have to concentrate quite a bit to not over drive the corners and remember where I am. Some corners look very similar, if you take your eyes off to press a button or something.
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Re: 2013 ROUND 13 Singapore GP Pre/Post Race

Post by Higpup » Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:35 am

Josf wrote:
I have abandoned trying to communicate any learning I may be accomplishing on the Set-up abilities known by some, and a mystery to me. Nothing appears to make sense from track to track. Next season is probably going to be either not happening or not happening with any knowledge (or false belief in knowledge) earned with this MOD as it exists: possibly moving to rFactor 2.
Do you have a base setup that you are comfortable with as far as speed and tire wear at some track in the past? I usually take my base setup and tweak it for the track, and do nothing drastic, as far as changes.
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Re: 2013 ROUND 13 Singapore GP Pre/Post Race

Post by JohnW » Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:24 pm

Yep.

I'm using the basic setup I had from day one of the season. Which, is pretty much the same as Sean's. I'm pretty sure you have one of Sean's to refer to , Josf. We like a little difference in brake and steering settings. I change the wings as the track dictates and the weight from side to side, depending on the corners. If the curbs are nasty, and I don't want to get hung up on them, I raise the ride height.
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Josf
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Re: 2013 ROUND 13 Singapore GP Pre/Post Race

Post by Josf » Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:12 pm

Hello,
Do you have a base setup that you are comfortable with as far as speed and tire wear at some track in the past? I usually take my base setup and tweak it for the track, and do nothing drastic, as far as changes.
I was set to go into the server and work on gaining position on the track, but I read that, and John's reply, and so I write some before starting the engine.

Singapore is easy for avoiding one tire heating up much faster than all the other tires, so I am merely taking the set-up I had at Monza, and changing a few things slightly.

My problem has been one thing or another, the last problem, before Monza (another easy track), was tires that heat up way too high. I typed messages with Sean and he said something about lower wings and cooler tires, which I tried, and that did work on that track, but the problem to me is that one thing working at one track does not appear to work at another track, and persisting in working to find out why is no longer a concern because it will probably be wasted effort since this MOD is reaching the end of its long life - apparently - rFactor 2 nearing a useable state of being.

Singapore is so far from Monza it amazes me that the set-up is working, and I took the same set-up from the race before, so perhaps it is true, that I stumbled upon a set-up that works.

I was not able to use Sean's set-ups because one tire (at the tracks I tried Sean's set-ups) wore out much faster than any other tire. I was faster with Sean's set-up, but only for a short while, and then the one tire went away. I suppose I could have tried to figure out how to drive to save that one tire at that time. I went another direction instead.

So, if John is going faster, he may make a mistake, so I can let him go, and I don't have to try to keep up. I know that I have to get into a rhythm at each track and at Singapore it is not easy to find that ZONE, not as easy as Monza. I do know the track well by now, having done so many laps.
I change the wings as the track dictates and the weight from side to side, depending on the corners. If the curbs are nasty, and I don't want to get hung up on them, I raise the ride height.
I no longer change side to side weight. I found conflicting results from track to track as to what cause is effected by those changes. I also remember Sean's set-ups caused many sparks on my car, so I raise ride height to get rid of sparks. I am at the bottom of ride height front and back at Singapore.

One thing I think is true, is higher front height relative to rear height does tend to transfer tire wear off of front tires and onto back tires, so far that has remained a consistent cause of that effect from track to track.

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Re: 2013 ROUND 13 Singapore GP Pre/Post Race

Post by Higpup » Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:02 am

You might have actually hit on your base setup. I know I didn't really have one until this race last year. I had Josh's help and a few tweaks to make it a bit more stable for my driving style, AND adapting my style a bit to the setup, made a base setup for me. I think RF2 next year no matter what the state of it, is going to be my thing. I'm hoping there will be a mod or two out there that will be good enough to race and tracks to race on.

This is what helped me, and might help others:

I know I've said this before, and it took 2 seasons for it to finally sink in to me, over driving the corner entry will wear the hell out of your tires. Last year I over drove the corners at Monza, because I had higher wing and was getting smacked on the straights. I wore my tires out and had to make 2 stops. This year (even though different setup, about 90% the same) I went in the corners easier and focused on exit and was so easy on tires I could of run 15 more laps no problem on my last set of tires. Its kind of counter intuitive to try and go faster but go into the corners a bit slower, but it works for me. Josh pointed that out to me for 2 seasons, and last year at Silverstone, it clicked in my head.


1. I save tires
2. I feel more in control on corner entry.
3. I can get power down sooner to get off corner faster
4. Once I feel good on corner entry, I can focus on exit and other parts of the track.(thus getting faster times)
Sean Higgins
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Re: 2013 ROUND 13 Singapore GP Pre/Post Race

Post by JohnW » Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:53 pm

I'm learning something that was pushed my way for some years too.

I have ALWAYS felt I brake too early, compared to the faster drivers. Maybe that is because I have been hit from behind in the past, by fast, but flippant drivers who are no longer racing in our league. I have also seen guys make wild maneuvers to avoid me, under braking. So, for all the online seasons, I have tried to brake late as possible, thinking that would save time, and the FAST guys seem to do it.

Well, what it really did is screw up my corner entry. I would guess that just about every corner I took, during that time was over driven on entry, which made the car understeer on exit. This made me think my car handled badly and I would work very hard to get a better turn in to "fix" this. Of course, when teammates tried my setups, they would lose it in the corners and go back to their setup.

So, my mindset NOW is to hit the apex I want to hit and to heck with where that means I need to brake, which brings up another point. Brake bias. For the last few races, I have decreased the front bias. Instead of a flat 95% I have dropped to 85%. ( Josh setting ) Why ? Aren't I giving up braking power ? Yes, but I am also giving the car more room to NOT lock up the rear wheels under braking, which messes up braking distance and also gives me no room to make the tires turn while braking. As much as I think I am NOT trail braking, I do not get all the way off when I turn in. This gives the tires a built in cushion. 10% less brake pressure leaves 10% more for the tires to use to turn in and LESS of a chance of locking up the wheels. That all makes for a more stable car under braking and more room to turn in on the friction circle. Am I braking at the same spots ? Not always. Mostly just a little bit earlier. That is not to say that I still don't worry about getting chrome horned by the fast guys when they lap me. I just try to let them by BEFORE the corners.
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Re: 2013 ROUND 13 Singapore GP Pre/Post Race

Post by Josf » Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:10 pm

Thanks for the comments.

I do not often lock up the brakes and my procedure for using the brakes is to push hardest immediately and then ease off gradually unless brakes are fading and then I can't lock up at all no matter what I do, so those situations were situations where pushing harder and harder on the brakes were required. Having 100% or 50% as the setting for brake pressure (so called) is irrelevant if the pedal is moved only to the 50% point in the brake pedal travel, since the driver is therefore never asking for anymore than 50% brake pressure.

In other words, I have a rubber stopper on my brake pedal whereby the brake pedal is pushed to that rubber stopper and if that rubber stopper is at 50% of the brake travel, then I know when I have 50% brake pressure (assuming that I set my brake pressure at 100%, which is where I do set my brake pressure) and from the start of the feel of the rubber stopper until I compress the rubber stopper there is then an increase in brake pressure from 50% to 100%, and at 100% the rubber is squished to a compact physical stop.

I can manipulate the axis control menu items to move the feel of the brake from 50% to 75% or to 90% where the feel of the rubber stopper starts relative to brake pressure.

I do not have as much trouble feeling the brakes with this type of setup compared to a brake pedal that has one metal coiled spring to resist pedal movement from the off position to the full on position. To me the braking procedure advice offered is a non-issue.

I know when I am braking too late because my braking point was passed and I broke past my braking point (which is deeper into the turn as the car becomes lighter) and therefore I cannot turn into the apex because I broke past my braking point. I think I have that understood.

Turn 5 at Singapore is an example of a turn that is unusual and therefore a turn that is taken correctly, or fast, by the fast drivers, and not as fast by the slow drivers, and it is a turn that is very likely to involve non standard braking practices, such as having a unique combination of straight line braking and trail braking combined on just the right line through that turn, compared to turn 7 at Singapore where, in my opinion, turn 7 is a straight line braking type turn, no trail braking, since it is a standard 90 degree left turn after a long straight.

If I took out my helpful rubber stopper on my brake pedal I would have a much harder time learning how to take turn 5 at Singapore since I know that my ability to go faster through turn 5, carrying more speed on turn exit, depends upon my ability to gradually release the brake and to then get on the throttle sooner. When I get that turn right my lap time is significantly better, and when I fail to get that turn 5 at Singapore right my lap time is poor. I am currently struggling with that turn 5. To me it is a decreasing radius turn that requires a very delicate use of the brakes because the turn starts out as a very wide turn so it is as if there is a need to brake while turning for the entire use of the brake. I think it is important in that turn to get most of the turning done early and make a late apex with the throttle already on and the steering wheel is held or is unwinding.

During the time period between the end of this season and the beginning of next season, if possible, I need to know how to get set-up with rFactor 2, and have at least 1 track to begin working on the change from rFactor 1 to rFactor 2. If there will be a FiHS rFactor 2 season then knowing what will be used (again if that is at all possible) sooner rather than later, to me, is vital if I am going to be at all competitive next season.

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Re: 2013 ROUND 13 Singapore GP Pre/Post Race

Post by JohnW » Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:49 pm

Josf,

What sized rubber part did you put under your pedal ? Did it add to leg fatigue during the races ?


The whole rFactor 2 thing is really up in the air on how it's going to work. What mod ? What tracks ? Leave it stock or tweak the mod ? How much will the server cost me ? How much will I need to "charge" per driver, since the cost will be going up ? Just how much of a computer will we all need to make it drive smoothly ? After Sean's post about being in an rFactor 2 race and having VERY slow frame rates, that is an issue. How will this effect our long distance drivers like Alaster and Seabastian ?

I plan on purchasing new stuff for my rig. I may just built a totally NEW computer, if I can get the price for the parts low enough. I don't know, just yet.
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Re: 2013 ROUND 13 Singapore GP Pre/Post Race

Post by Josf » Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:45 pm

John,

I found 3/4 automotive heater hose cut at a length to fit sideways into the pedal lever channel, secured with two sheet metal screws and washers, while the hose is also cut lengthwise down the middle and the hose is then only one wall of the hose between the pedal lever and the normal end point of the lever travel. The feel is such that there is normal spring resistance, then there is a felt resistance of the rubber shape (still semi conforming to the curve of the hose) and then a rapidly increasing resistance up to a point where very little further movement is possible.

I think that there is a drastic decrease in foot fatigue, actually it is muscle fatigue between angle and knee, drastically reduces because I don't have to modulate downward and upward control of the foot. The added resistance pushes back the pedal travel (as it does in a real brake pedal) so there is no longer that need to pull up at a modulated rate of easing off the brakes, instead the feel to me is a relaxing of the force I used to squeeze the rubber, and that accomplishes the metered easing off of brake pressure.

I know the feel of riding motorcycles with a front brake lever, with hands that are more accustomed to feeding back information compared to a foot, and I noticed the change from Drum Brakes with cables compared to Disc Brakes with hydraulic cylinders, whereby the disc brakes tended to stick compared to the rapid decrease in braking power felt with Drum Brakes and cables as in the Drum Brake experience the rider of the motorcycle had to really clamp on the brakes hard, and then with the Discs and Hydraulic experience there was a much lesser tendency for the brakes to reduce pressure relative to how much force was used to move the lever, as if those brakes were holding themselves; which can hardly be the case.

I have no idea how a Formula 1 car feels so I can only simulate what I know works for me as a measure of feel, or feedback, absent a seat of the pants relative change of inertia felt while controls are manipulated. That may be more than what was asked. I think there is less fatigue on my left foot now compared to a simple coil spring on the brake pedal travel.

I personally have no problem sticking with this MOD for another season, or moving to an established Championship running F1 with rFactor 2, as may be the only options at that time. I just want to communicate my need to get something in the way of a start on the learning curve, whichever direction that this group goes, or I go separate from this group, whichever turns out to be the case. I do like the competition in this group. I hope that I have at least made that abundantly clear and understood without confusion.

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Re: 2013 ROUND 13 Singapore GP Pre/Post Race

Post by JohnW » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:46 pm

Josf,

It's all about the driver's interest. Running races with less that 10 participants seems very disappointing to me. I spend over $400 a year for the race server and it makes it all while when the grid is MUCH more crowded. I suspect that a solid F1 league with rFactor 2 is the way to go to regenerate interest. The problem is, we don't have a lot of data to go with. Current rFactor 2 servers are not packed, but not many rFactor 1 servers are either.
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Mauricio
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Re: 2013 ROUND 13 Singapore GP Pre/Post Race

Post by Mauricio » Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:19 am

Hey Guys!!! Such a long time!!! I have some time tonight to test some laps.
I would need the password. Hopefully will see some of you there.
Thanks a lot.

Mauricio
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Otto Acosta
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Re: 2013 ROUND 13 Singapore GP Pre/Post Race

Post by Otto Acosta » Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:46 pm

Did not turn a single lap of practice until tonight in qualifying, loaded a set adjusted wings and away we went and as expected was 10 secs off the pace :shock: :shock:

Started 5th, out of 7 that is, because 2 guys didn't turn laps, had a good start let Stuff off the hook at T1 because I knew he was a good 4 secs faster than me at the point. I let everyone go until I got used to the track and car and started to drive normally, losing bunch of time on the last sector, cant get it right on this track no matter the version or mod I used, just cant get it right.

Found myself running 2nd after Sean and then Juice ran into trouble but was 37 secs back to Stuff after the first stop but by then I was running very consistent and fast laps, had no idea where that speed came from and then it happened, a full-course yellow and I was right behind Stuff with about 18 to go or so when the green came out and we had a good go there for a few laps and then I lost the rears with 13 to go and hit the wall then hit it 2 more times trying to get the car turned around and when got to the pits the crew wanted me to wait for 406 secs so I bailed.

I cant figure out how to stop the rears from locking and losing the back end when downshifting to 1st or 2nd gears, all I know what to do is apply some throttle but that messed up braking distance and if I forget to do it, like it happened tonight, is usually game over. I like this mod but man that little detail there rally puts me off. I don't like to think when I am driving, just let instincts and muscle memory do the work.

Any way, enough with the whining. Congrats to the winner and to all who managed to finish the race.

Hope to see you on the next round.
"To finish first, you first have to finish" - Mario Andretti

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Re: 2013 ROUND 13 Singapore GP Pre/Post Race

Post by Higpup » Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:48 am

I finally had a great start, thanks to Stuff spinning the tires. I got into P1 at turn 1 and just at the end of lap 2 or 3 POOF "connection lost". Sucks leading and getting disconnected but oh well. Congrats to Stuff
Sean Higgins
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