2012 Round 9: British GP POST RACE

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JoshJ81
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2012 Round 9: British GP POST RACE

Post by JoshJ81 »

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British Grand Prix
Silverstone Circuit - Silverstone, England

Race Date and Time: July 6th @ 9PM EST
Laps: 39

Download Track HERE just unzip to your GameData/Locations folder
New Trackconfigbase.ini files To install, follow the files in the zipped file. (Ensure all TEAM folders get this one file not just your TEAM's folder or you will get a mismatch)

Circuit Details - Excellent Read!!!
RESULTS
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Josf
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Re: 2012 Round 9: British GP

Post by Josf »

League,

Thanks (Josh) for getting the new track up so soon. Thanks for the article on Silverstone.

Silverstone has a lot of very tricky sections and thanks in advance if anyone (Sean in particular) are willing to help me go faster with another set-up file.

Josf
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Re: 2012 Round 9: British GP

Post by JoshJ81 »

Usually most people start with the track setup from the previous race. Silverstone is similar to Valencia
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Re: 2012 Round 9: British GP

Post by JohnW »

Now, I would have expected Silverstone to be closer to Barcelona or Bahrain , as far as setups are concerned. I based my Valencia setup on Canada.
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Josf
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Re: 2012 Round 9: British GP

Post by Josf »

League,

How do you attack the set-up goal? What is the nature of it, what are you trying to accomplish, exactly, and how do you get to that goal?

Here in this League the tire modeling appears to be done well enough to make set-ups make sense (to me), and combined with the length of the race, and combined with the more rapid tire wear, the set-up appears to be very sensitive to tire wear, and therefore the goal appears to be to make the tires last and still go fast (balance).

Setting aside all the issues of balance for a moment the issue of tire wear at Silverstone is a case in point since, at least for me initially, the front left tire is heating up much faster than any other tire, and even when I find ways to move the heat off that tire: the left front tire wears out much quicker than any other tire.

My question concerns the earning of valuable knowledge as to what can be done to go faster, of course, since that knowledge, if shared, will level the playing field, and the challenge is less of a challenge to see who can find a fast set-up, and the challenge is more of a challenge to see who can drive quicker from the start of the race to the finish of the race.

I want to share what I have learned, as well as to gain what has already been found out the hard way. If the slowest in the field can be helped to speed up, then, perhaps, the fastest in the field won't be so bored as to resort to starting in the back - and other neat things that can happen when lap times narrow down to everyone being within a few seconds of each other.

I had weight all the way forward at Valentia, where I think the rear tires heated up a lot due to the many slow turns requiring rapid acceleration often. Here at Silverstone I see a need to move everything that can be moved to move heat away from the left front tire.

Moving weight all the way to the right.

Moving weight all the way back.

High spring rates on the left front. Right rear spring rate at minimum. High roll bar settings. High tire pressure on the left front. Lower and lower tire pressures on all the other tires.

I ran into Camber, which is negative if the top of the tire points to the other tire or into the car, or the other way around, I can't seem to get that right, but it looks like high negative numbers of camber cause the inside of the tire to get hotter than the outside of the tire, so I turned down the negative camber numbers on the front tires to get the heat, and wear, in the front tire spread more evenly across the tire.

While at Silverstone practicing the League members Stuff, Tom, Yellow, Tim (I think), and J Kim, were driving laps and adding to the fun, in my view. While on the track, and someone joins the server, the car they drive in my view is a default skin, a boxy sedan ghost car, until I leave the track and rejoin, for some reason.

Front wings are going up at Silverstone compared to Valentia for me, and here may be a clue as to why my left front is getting so hot, thinking now, it may be a battle between too much spring rate (thinking to move weight off the tire and heat out of the tire) and then having to use wind downforce to regain steering balance, where those high speed right hand turns ant Copse and Abbey require the front tires to grip.

Here is another question: why does Abbey seem like a slower corner than Copse in this program when the actual Abbey turn is less degrees of turning and should therefore be a faster turn compared to Copse? This may just be my inability to find the right line through Abbey and my inability to find the set-up that works for Abbey, but the feeling is unmistakable for me at this point: at this point Abbey feels like the slower corner compared to Copse, and it was easy to confuse one with the other during the initial re-familiarization with the Silverstone GP track.

Maggonts and Becketts will be a very competitive place in the race, it seems to me, since it is so easy to get out of phase, and the fast way through is much faster than the out of phase way through those turns.

Here at Silverstone, so far, at least from my seat, the Set-up has to be good enough to get left front tire wear down to a minimum, and balance has to be geared toward the Abbey turn, to get Abbey just right, and then the other high speed turns are pieces of cake, relatively speaking. The slower sections (few here compared to Valentia) have to be compromises since there is a serious need to get the high speed turns just right.

It looks to me like, so far, that an oversteering car is necessary, relatively speaking, or comparing Silverstone to Valentia, where Valentia was more about getting the rear tires to grip during slow turn exists, and Silverstone is more about getting the car to stay exactly on the fast line through Abbey. Copse, Maggots and Becketts in that order.

In the link Circuit Details - Excellent Read!!!, there was a note about removing some of the high Kurbs so as to allow for the Motorcycle GP racers to race at Silverstone, but taking Abbey too far inside the apex here in this League is like taking a jump, making Abbey even more of a significant turn to get just right every lap.

Any help with set-ups is appreciated.
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Re: 2012 Round 9: British GP

Post by Juice »

Josf, I used the Evelyn wood method to read your "novel", and will give you a "cliff notes" style response. :D

In the search for more speed in an online sim, a setup is only half the equation of fast laps. It isn't as important as I feel you think it is. Obviously, you are getting to know what each setting in the garage does, where most people I've raced with in the past can't even bother with setups. They just want to show up and race a fixed set. Not here, that is why I'm here, but I digress....

Now I'm not the fastest guy here, but I'll share my view and approach to going faster. You need to prioritize how you approach setting up a car. To me one of the most important setting is tire pressures, that is where I start. I may have to make fine adjustments to them later, after other changes to springs, shocks, etc. I'm not going to go any deeper into building a set,

Now for the other half of the equation, your pc and wheel settings are very critical in F1 type racing. The better the pc and wheel, the faster it should go vs someone on an older pc and cheaper steering wheel. It has been my experience that the guys with more disposable income who can buy wheels such as an ECCI or similiar "high end" wheel have better control and are generally faster with them. What I'm trying to say is you need to optimize your wheel settings as best as you can, not just tune in the garage. For example, you burning up one of the front tires might be because you are turning the wheel too far nd causing the tire to scrub too much. IMO, you need a G25 or better to even think about being a competitive and consistent driver.

As for the "temp" car, you just need to exit the track and go back to the garage. It's an rfactor thing. Next time you go on track, you will see the driver(s) in their correct cars. Rfactor can't load the graphics of those who join while you're on the track.
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Re: 2012 Round 9: British GP

Post by Higpup »

This is how I approach setups (not that I'm that good at doing them) I first try and get a setup that doesn't spin out under braking OR off corners, then I try wings, then springs then tire pressures. Then I might try some fine tunning from there to get tires to last as long as they can, while still trying to go faster with every change. IF I didn't go faster or it didn't feel more stable with a change, I put it back. Like I mentioned before, you can be 2 seconds a lap faster than everyone, but if you spin out once every 5 laps, you might as well not be and have a stable car.
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Josf
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Re: 2012 Round 9: British GP

Post by Josf »

Thanks,

I'm on-board with the consistency thing and that is where the League provides help with those Race Results. I did not score high in consistency in the last race but I think much of that is due to my punting a car that appeared to suddenly slow down in front of me on a fast, accelerating, part of the track, plus a foible in the pits having to do with inadvertently removing the speed limiter, which may have been due to me turning off the engine expecting a long repair time after the punting, spinning in the pits with sudden unexpected acceleration, and a Stop and Go, but otherwise my lap times were consistent, and after a lot of practice races, trying to complete the 43 laps, I did not manage any error free, no spin, races until the actual race on Friday where I didn't spin once in the whole race (except for the spin in the pits which wasn't a racing spin).

Writing a book here again.

The concept of keeping the tires lasting, I suppose, aught to be learned the hard way, but I wonder if secret set-up skills can be pried out of Tim who managed both 3 place and only 2 sets of tires, fastest lap on the first stint was the lap before the pit stop: 24 laps on one set of tires and getting consistently faster right up until the tires are worn out!

In the case of Sean's set-up example, which he allowed me to use, I would never have thought to change shocks the way his shocks are changed and so far I keep that arrangement of higher slow rebound relative to other shock settings. I suppose the danger there is a shock that will stack up or fail to rebound over multiple bumps, but I don't know if that is modeled in the software, but I do know that the set-up I was using before Sean gave me his set-up, no matter how I drove my set-up, for many laps consistently, was not nearly as fast as Sean's Valentia set-up once I customized it to my preference of feel.

There is a FiHS default or factory set-up, and it helps too, but not as much, in my opinion, as Sean's set-up (at least for Valentia).

All I can afford for the foreseeable future is my MOMO and I'm lucky to have it. I won't know if I could go faster or not with a better wheel until I reach that point were nothing I do can beat my best lap so far, which isn't even close to the situation I am at now with the new fiHS MOD. My wheel works fine, there is plenty of adjustment to balance the need for quickness and/or stability. I really don't think that I am using the front wheels as rudders by cranking them way past the range of best slip angle, but that is possible here at Silverstone more so than Valentia especially on Abbey and Copse turns where I can't seem to get the car to oversteer without also increasing the rapid rate that the front left tire wears out, and without making the car oversteer too much at Club and Luffield (approaches to the fast straights before the new and old Start/Finish lines). My slow rolling on the throttle is tested greatly on Club and Luffeild.

Before RACE DAY I hope to figure more out and reduce lap times while keeping tire wear to a manageable rate; right now the car seems to have way too much wing at 50/50, but still those high speed turns cost a lot of rubber even with those high wings, and mostly left front tire rubber, so the indication is not enough grip, not necessarily too much steering wheel input by the ham-fisted over driver with the junk steering wheel, that could be the problem, but I am what I am and I have what I have. The lack of grip up front requires slower speeds to keep the car from going off the turn exit. That tells me, or had told me in the past, that I need to add front wing and lower rear wing, to lower understeer and begin to work on oversteer in those turns, particularly turn exit. When I have felt the balance in the old MOD it was when I arrived at the situation where I can be on the throttle at the apex and the application of throttle adds to the car yawing which inspires the driver to unwind the steering wheel, not keep the same wheel position, and certainly not crank the steering wheel more in the turn direction in the futile effort to get the front wheels to stick better.

Abbey is a huge challenge for finding that balance and more so now, to me, with the vital need to keep tire wear down to a minimum. The RACE Results also show how quickly pit stops are managed with the veterans here setting the bar so high.

I do understand how car set-ups won't make sense if turns like Abbey are not taken right each time, but a really bad set-up, which is what I may have so far, makes for a whole different right line through Abbey compared to what I expect to end up with after more work on both driving and set-up.

If no one minds the use of the Forum I can keep posting these experiences in that direction.
This is how I approach setups (not that I'm that good at doing them) I first try and get a setup that doesn't spin out under braking OR off corners, then I try wings, then springs then tire pressures.
Having your Valentia set-up as a very helpful base (especially with the differential and shock settings) it may be asking too much to steal your Silverstone set-up, we are competing, and I could learn a lot about what you do from track to track with all those variables.

Best Hot Lap Replay so far is 1:44.536.

This is going to be a tough race, very challenging.
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Re: 2012 Round 9: British GP

Post by Steven_M »

Personally, I just complain a lot to Josh.
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Re: 2012 Round 9: British GP

Post by JoshJ81 »

Steven_M wrote:Personally, I just complain a lot to Josh.
True...and then I tell him to shut up and drive!
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Re: 2012 Round 9: British GP

Post by JoshJ81 »

Tire wear is the big thing here. All the tracks will kill one of the tires more than the other...there is no way around it. However, there is a way to minimize it so it is not as bad. Weight transfer, aka balancing act that works for you. What gives you the best secure feel entering and exit? If you can drive comfortable enough, then that is your setup. Sometimes its the fastest of everyone and sometimes it is not, but at least it is comfortable to you. That's the approach I look for. I keep a moderate balance in the wings and will look to do so with Silverstone because wings are the key there. You need a ton of top speed but enough balance and grip for the high speed corners. Silverstone is the ultimate in car balance because of the huge differences from one end of the track to the other (Spa as well).

Just make it comfortable for you, stick with that feeling and you will get faster to the more comfortable you get with it.

Josf, have you read this thread yet? CLICK HERE
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Re: 2012 Round 9: British GP

Post by JohnW »

Josf,

Tire wear and heat is controlled by car balance but is also very dependent on driver. We had a guy in the league earlier in the season who did very little beyond complaining about the tires wearing out too fast and telling us it was broken and needed to be fixed. When we told him he was the ONLY one that was making extra stops and that it wasn't broken and suggested he needed to change his tire management, he wasn't happy. He eventually moved on. On the other end of the scale is my driving. In many cases my issue is I can not keep heat IN the tires and I don't get their optimum grip. I can also make just about anyone's setup understeer. Well, except Ricardo. His even I felt were too much oversteer. Ric could also make his tires LAST ! How he was so fast and yet still made so few stops was always amazing and annoying.

SIlverstone puts LOTS of pressure on that left front. Lots of corners that are long and may be quick as well.
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Re: 2012 Round 9: British GP

Post by Josf »

Josh,

I read the thread a few times now and I even looked up other sources for correct terminology on negative and positive values of camber, caster, and toe.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/ ... p?techid=4

This was helpful:

Image
Additionally the vehicle's toe is one of the most critical alignment settings relative to tire wear.
I don't know if that is the case with this MOD or rFactor in general, but I'm going to try lower toe settings.

Here is a good link on which tires should have higher or lower optimal temperatures (FIRFT was backwards while FiHS is done according to this information):

http://www.aaformula1.com/2011/04/f1-pi ... stics.html

This was interesting:

http://www.pirelli.com/mediagallery/au/ ... 7783f.html

Last night's practice was not good, being unable to get even close to my best time so far at Silverstone, but finding benefit in "feel" with higher front wing and lower rear wing for Abbey and Copse. Those turns are very quick, very fast, and very little room for error, and I don't like going from apex to the exit rumble strips while off the throttle so I think I need a whole lot more work on Abbey.

If I can get back to work on the track tonight the focus will be to avoid repeating a poor showing and instead to keep the car on the track for many more laps even when things do not feel right.

I ran into a curious condition of having hotter right side tires and hotter left rear, coldest left front, and still the left front wears out while the other tires are still at 40%.
Well, except Ricardo. His even I felt were too much oversteer. Ric could also make his tires LAST ! How he was so fast and yet still made so few stops was always amazing and annoying.
It must take some serious discipline, but I'd like to see the set-up anyway.

P.S. I'm not new to car mechanics or racing but there is always room for learning and reinforcing or finding contradictions that need to be resolved.
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SPECIAL REQUEST

Post by Tim202 »

It is the end of the fiscal quarter and my company has to do a $hit-ton of reports to send to corporate (Got a new job finally for those that do not know). I was told that I will be working till 6pm PST (9 EST) on Friday. I am about 25 min from home. I was wondering if the start could be delayed a little this Friday. I do not need to qual, so maybe start Q1 at 9:15 EST? If anyone cannot accomodate this then just go ahead and start as normal. Thank you everyone!


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Josf
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Re: 2012 Round 9: British GP

Post by Josf »

start Q1 at 9:15 EST


No Problem on my end (not that it means much).
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